The “Great Crowd”
EMail This PostClick Here for the Watchtower Documents on the 144,000 and the Great Crowd.PDF
In 1935 the Watchtower began to teach that only 144,000 of the Jehovah’s Witnesses would go to Heaven after they die and the remaining class called “The Great Crowd” would inherit paradise earth and live on earth forever after the resurrection by Jesus. Since they say the 144,000 have already been sealed I assume that most Jehovah’s Witnesses alive today are part of the 99% of Jehovah’s Witnesses that feel they are in the Great Crowd that will live on Paradise Earth.
For the Jehovah’s Witnesses, would you please help me out and show me where specifically the Bible says “The Great Crowd will live on earth.” Please read Rev 7:9-15. In verse nine we know right away that the great crowd is in heaven. This is a heavenly scene. The heavenly throne and the Lamb are there. The great crowd is standing before the throne. In verse 11 we see other heavenly creations. There are angels, the elders and the four living creatures. These are always spoken in revelation as heavenly creatures. Notice what they did. They fell before the heavenly throne and worshiped God who was there. Verse 13 presents a powerful question. One of the elders asks, “who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?” That would be a silly question if this was an earthly scene. The reason the elder wanted to know where this great crowd is from, was that they were strangers to the territory. They were strangers to heaven. If this was an earthly seeing the answer to the question might have been New York or California.
In verse 14 we have our answer. These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation. These are earthly tribulations saints, who still go to heaven, but they have to go through the tribulation, because they accepted Christ after the tribulation began. Notice their salvation. Verse 14 says this crowd have washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the lamb. They didn’t believe an organization for salvation, they accepted Christ.
So does the Watchtower teach a lie that the great crowd will live on earth? Why does the Watchtower society say that the great crowd will live on earth, when Revelation 19:1 says that the great crowd is in heaven? (Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great sound of the great crowd in heaven, saying, hallelujah! Salvation and glory and honor and the power of the lord our God! Interestingly you will find no scripture that says the great crowd will live on the earth. Since 1935, when the alcoholic president of the Watchtower, Judge Rutherford, (who died of cirrhosis of the liver) made the decision that the majority of Jehovah’s witnesses should live on the earth, Jehovah’s witnesses have been living a lie. The Watchtower society has taken salvation through Jesus’ away from the great crowd.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:37 pm
[…] I will Pay $10,000.00 to the first person who can show me the scripture from the Bible that says these words specifically: “The Great Crowd will live on the Earth for eternity.” This is what the Watchtower teaches, but its not true. YOUR ETERNAL LIFE DEPENDS ON IT! […]
October 25th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
[…] I am having a problem with the fact that we have had NO comments since posting “The Great Crowd“. Before, we got hate mail, you will die in Armageddon mail, but it as been like the life was pulled out of this blog since “The Great Crowd”. What the heck is going on? I actually think that we have hit on a subject that the Watchtower cannot answer on. And lets face it, if the Watchtower cannot answer it, then neither can the Jehovah’s Witnesses. We had 22 comments on the ex-witnesses, but can’t get a comment on “The Great Crowd“? […]
October 26th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Thank you so much for pointing this out. I don’t think the Jehovahs Witnesses and answer this question, nor can the Watchtower. Great points here, keep it up!
October 28th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
I too thank you! My dad is involved in this CULT. I am sad about it,he tried to get me involved. This cult has destroyed my faith in my Dad.
October 29th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the 144,000 will rule in heaven with Jesus OVER the paradise Earth when the “righteous” have inherited it. Just thought i’d point that out. I’ve been a Jehovahs Witness for over 8 years and thats what we have been taught, not that they will actually live on paradise. =)
October 29th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
Kristin, thank you for writing. Hey listen, love your Dad all you can and whisper the truth in his ear. Don’t lose faith in your Dad and be the light he needs. Trust in the Lord and he will direct your path. He will show you how to reach him. Learn and pray Kristin and don’t give up on your Dad. I haven’t given up on my mother yet and its been 30 years! Gods timing is not ours. Trust Jesus, lean on him, love him and let him show you the way to reach your Dad!! DON’T GIVE UP! EVER!!
October 29th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
Jade, really? Can you explain what you just said based on what the Bible says? Show me in Gods Word where what you are saying will happen. We love you, but please be specific. =)
October 30th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Have I been taught wrong? I thought that the 144,000 will help rule with Jesus which it says in Rev 20:4 by the way and the others will help build a paradise on earth
October 30th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Ladybug, where doe sit say in Rev 20:4 anything about the 144,000? Do you see the 144,000 mentioned here or are you inserting this group into the text? Interestingly it says “souls” of those beheaded for their witness to “JESUS”, not Jehovah. How can there be “souls” alive to “witness” if they cease to exist? Read all of Rev 20 not just 20:4 and I think you will see more. Most Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained by the Watchtower on one verse as their proof text. However, if you want to know the meaning, you must read the whole chapter to understand. You can’t just pick a verse out of the Bible and say, ahhh, see? “I should cut off my right hand because it caused be to sin”.
October 30th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Pedward, Thankyou for your article about “The Great Crowd”. I have been to 10 different ‘religions’ in the last 20 years. One of them is currently Jehovah Witness Kingdom Hall. I have an open mind, just because I use their Hall to hear the Word of God does not mean that I am a Jehovah Witness, but I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. There are so many Bibles that are of different translations that I do not know which one to use. I am confused! Can you help me, please. Do you hsve a Bible that can give me the true understanding of God’s Word? I want to be 100% with God
October 31st, 2006 at 12:19 am
Kenneth,
Thanks for leaving your comment and we are so glad you did.
Praise God! I think you are off to a step in the right direction when you ask, “Do you have a bible that can give me the TRUE understanding of God’s Word?”
The New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures is what JW’s believe to be the “only” true translation of God’s Word. This translation is NOT recognized by any of the respected and credentialed biblical linguists. The NWT is an inaccurate and misleading translation of The Holy Bible by five men of The Watchtower Society. When questioned by scholars, around the world, about the credentials and accountability of the translators The Watchtower Society hid behind the excuse that all the glory should be given to God. This was a tactic used to hide the identity of the men responsible for translation. The identity of these men was revealed. None were biblical linguists, none had Greek or Hebrew training at all. The Watchtower Society has taken God’s Word and twisted it, turned it and changed it in order to conform to their beliefs and doctrine. Changed to fit their theology. Changed again and again and again!
God’s Word NEVER changes!
Since you state you believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Do you believe they are ONE?
Let me give you just one example. Please know there are many, many more.
John 1:1-51 from the NWT reads as follows:
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
Please pay special attention to the last part where they have inserted the article a. This completely changes the meaning, stripping Jesus of His deity and leaving the door wide open that there is more than one god.
There is only One God and God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are One, all equal.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God”
If we want to be 100% with God then it is of the utmost importance that we be for Him. We can be for Him by knowing Him. We know Him through Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. He is the ONLY way, and sadly my friend The Watchtower does not teach this. This goes directly against God.
I urge you to read The Word. It is from God’s Word that we come to know Him and all He desires for us. It is here you will find the Truth. Kingdom Hall is not teaching God’s Word they are teaching their own agenda. Please read more information on the website. Please contact us with questions, specific ones if needed and we will discuss and answer them for you. As far as bibles go, I personally recommend the NASB (New American Standard Bible) or the NLT (New Living Translation) both of which are accurate and correct translations of God’s Word. We love you my friend.
servingHim
October 31st, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Okay, well what about the scripture at Psalms 37:29, where it says the righteous will posses the earth forever. Explain to me the Scripture at Revelation 14:1 where it speaks of 144,000 being with Jesus in heaven?
I am studying theology and I no point did Russell claim to be a prophet, nor did Rutherford. They felt like those years were significant, but I have never found any accounts of them saying that that is the end or the rapture. And, where did they claim to be prophets? If someone has that info, I would like to hear it. Thanks.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Where do you get your info? You make many claims, but have no references… You said that know Hebrew or Greek Scholars would endorse the NWT… where do you get that? I only respect facts backed by references… not simple opinions that are clearly slighted one way. What about the Paganism behind the teachings of the Trinity, Christmas and Easter. Easter came from the goddess of Eostere. Which was a god of fertility. That is where the jack rabbit comes from. What does Easter have to do with Jesus? Has anyone ever studied the council of Niscea? These are teachings from Christianity? Aren’t we suppose to worship God in Spirit and in Truth? If Christmas and Easter were instituted 300 years after Jesus death to help incorporate a Universal (Catholic)religion to help keep peace between the Pagans and the true Christians, then is that really worshiping God in truth? That is one thing that pulls people to the Witnesses, because if you really study the holiday’s, they are laced with Pagan rituals that we still worship today, through our so-called holidays that we TEACH in our churches… something to think about.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Thank you Jay. I’m not saying that there aren’t things wrong with Jehovah’s Witnesses, just as there are things wrong in all religions. However there are a LOT of pagan influences in today’s Christianity. If someone were to read the Bible without the preconception of the Trinity, would they come up with it on their own? No. Early Christians didn’t even believe in it until hundreds of years after Jesus died. By the way, Constantine, a pagan, was on the committee that came up with the trinity doctrine. Many pagan religions are based on a trinity of gods.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:40 pm
I believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are closer to the teachings of Jesus than many Christian churches today.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Oh yes one more thing. Jehovah’s Witnesses DO believe that you must accept Christ to be saved because he paid for the original sin. We just don’t believe that Jesus is God.
October 31st, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Psalms 37:29 Not sure what your point is, but here is what it is saying. If you read that passage in context you will see that it is not foretelling a time when God will remove the wicked and turn control over to good people. What it is saying is that the psalmist was inspired to tell his fellow Israelites what they could expect in their own lifetime. Good men would prosper under God’s blessing, while wicked men would fare poorly. Example, look at verse 25, David writes, “A young man I used to be, I have also grown old, And yet I have not seen anyone righteous left entirely, Nor his offspring looking for bread” (NWT) He is speaking of things in his lifetime.
Rev 14:1 I agree, the 144,000 are in heaven and I never said they weren’t. You may be “studying theology”, but it’s obviously from the Watchtower since you repeat everything they tell you without research. Russell and Rutherford both, headed up the Watchtower when they made the claims that Armageddon was going to end the world on several different dates. Who said they called themselves prophets? But let me ask you something, if the Watchtower made these false prophecies that did not come true, who do you blame, God? Read the Watchtower’s own publications that we have in our library and you will see for yourself. If a man lies about something, but never calls himself a liar, does that mean his not a liar? They may not have called themselves prophets, but if they say something is going to happen because the “organization” is directed by God, then what are they? This is the kind of debate that really makes me sick to my stomach.
As far as your other post, I can tell you this. First of all, I could spend a lot of time addressing each issue that you raise, but I am not going to. There are times when I am speaking to a Jehovah’s Witness that I know they are not even trying to listen or hear me. They are only trying to side track me from the questions I have raised without answering them. Second of all, you will not use this site as your sounding block to spew out the false doctrines the watchtower has taught you. My goodness Jay, you speak like a walking Watchtower and you need to take a very hard look at what you’re saying.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Also Jay, I am assuming you wanted a greek scholar that agrees that the NWT is NOT a valid transation (although thats not what you said), so here are a few, Dr. Robert Countess who wrote a dissertation on the NWT, Dr Julius Mantey the aurthor of A Manuel Grammer of the Greek New Testament, Dr Bruce Metzger of Princeton University, should I continue or are you ready to listen? Will you respect these facts that you ask for or come up with yet another set of reasons to throw them out? All of which are given to you by the Watchtower to say to us.
Who said that a jack rabbit had anything to do with Easter? You are just spouting off the Watchtower doctrine my friend. You mention that Christmas and Easter were instituded 300 years after Jesus death, but you fail to say why these holidays are wrong. You did not mention the fact that the Jehovahs Witnesses were instituted 2000 years after his death, so with your point of view I guess the Watchtower is pagan based on that. The Watchtower always wants to throw everything off track instead of facing the questions.
October 31st, 2006 at 11:38 pm
Ladybug, I really feel for you, because I think you are really searching and you don’t know. You try and convince yourself that the Watchtower is right, but I really don’t think that is solved in your heart. When your ready, we will be here, just ask, because we do love you.
November 2nd, 2006 at 12:52 am
can someone please show me a specific quotation from the watchtower or any other publication published by the watchtower society that says “the gret tribulation will start in such-in-such month in such-in-such year,” or the same thing about armagedon?
November 2nd, 2006 at 3:13 am
I have come to understand the 144,000 as being 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Which would mean, Jewish people who have not accepted Jesus. That right after the catching-away of the church (christians), they would realize the truth and be immediately saved. They then are supernaturally protected against the antichrist so that they may go out into the world and preach the gospel. That is the only way that people during the tribulation will be able to hear the Good News. I don’t know how Jehovah’s Witnesses have twisted that into what they have. It is right there in the bible. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?
November 4th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
This is ridiculously ridulous, have you been to the bethel facility in NY? These aren’t 2 or 3 guys with their own agenda misleading 6 million people, there’s a complete writing department and library that rivals any in NY. By the way, what is their agenda? None of those guys are getting paid they’re all volunteers from the president right down to the person who knocks on your door. Now let me ask you this, how much are you making? Exactly.
November 5th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Javier, we have those listed in our watchtower library, so take a look.
November 5th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Yngms, I haven’t been to the facility in NY, but I’m also not sure what your point is, sorry. Do you think that because they have their own writing department and library that this adds some sort of creditability to them? How many Muslims does it take to run their operation? How much to they get paid? How about the Mormons? How many does it take to run their operation and how much do they get paid? As you can see, your argument really has no meaning. Their agenda? Their agenda is very simple, it’s spelled out in almost every publication! That is this, you must become a Jehovah’s Witness and be plugged into “Gods Organization” to be saved from Armageddon and live on paradise earth. And by they way, this means buying all their books and publications for a donation or price. Have I left out anything? You say that no one is paid, so I guess that means that the president on down has a full time job to support himself and his family. Would that be like Judge Rutherford a former president living in a mansion that was owned by the watchtower?
Now, as far how much I make? I tell ya what, here it is. Last year I made over 100K in my full time and part time jobs. Notice I said “jobs”. I pay for the site. It comes out of money that the Lord has seen fit to give to me. I make no income from this site, nor is anyone paid. The servants here are just that, servants. As one of our ministers name says “servinghim”. Is that exact enough, if not please let me know, because I know that the Jehovah’s Witness always want to shift the finger of blame and accusation on others.
Now, I have answered your questions, why don’t you answer mind on the “Great Crowd”. This was posted under the great crowd post, so I assumed that you would want to answer it instead of trying to throw everyone onto what a big place the Watchtower owns.
November 5th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
I’m quite intrigued by your comments and infact surprised on how much effort and money you spend on this website for something useless in my point of view.
Nevertheless, I hope you will be enlighted and I hope this message won’t a “useless pearl” for you.
Please be quided accordingly that we JW and so with early christians are bible students - to say that we as humans have limitations hence we learn the scriptures continually. If you have some ideas or questions, all you have to do is to wait and see for light will come to answer all your questions and don’t use your idea as a tools against the organization. As said in the bible regarding bible knowledge, its like a light that as time goesby, it keeps getting brighter and brighter.
Hence your argument now may prove the likeness of Korah. Please be guarded with your accusations.
Note: If you have found some misspelled words in this note, I hope you won’t take it against me or the organization but I hope you will read between the lines and be enlightened. Some would say its better to ignore you but I give this a shot, and I hope this will give a good effect on you.
November 5th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Thank you Guess Who for writing and I am glad you found my comments intriguing. Hopefully you will find it intriguing enough to really dig deep into what I am saying to uncover the truth.
I’m sorry to say my friend that your comment did not guide, enlightened, or even impress me. This light you speak of, is it from God? You spoke about the Bible and light, please give me the verse you are referring to and I will explain it to you.
But since you want to talk about light, let’s do that. According to the Watchtower, new light means that Jehovah has given the “Organization” new incite on what the he really meant in the scripture. As a matter of fact the Watchtower of 2/1881 says “ New light never contradicts old light, but adds to it” This has been the stance of the Watchtower since.
Now, lets just take a look at one instances of new light.
The Watchtower, November 15, 1967 “Humans were allowed by god to keep animal flash and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this including human flesh, sustaining one’s life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice at the abhorrent to all civilized people… when there is a disease or defect of Oregon, than usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body and uses food eaten to repair or he’ll do work and, gradually replacing the cells. Women of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest we moving the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living to off the flash of another human. That is cannibalistic.”
Awake!, June 8, 1968 “There are those, such as Christian Witnesses of Jehovah, who consider all transplants between humans as cannibalism”
The Watchtower, Mar. 15, 1980 “Regarding the transplantation of human tissue or bone from one human to another, this is a matter for conscientious decision by each one of Jehovah’s witnesses. Some Christians might feel that taking into their bodies in each issue or body part from another human base cannibalistic … Other sincere Christians today may feel that the Bible does not definitely ruled out medical transplants up human organs. They may reason that in some cases the human material is not expected to become a permanent part of the recipient’s body. Body cells are said to be replaced about every seven years, and this would be true of any human body parts that would be transplanted. It may be argued, too, that organ transplants are different from cannibalism since the “donor” is not killed to supply food … while the Bible specifically forbids consuming blood, there is no Biblical command pointedly forbidding of the taking and of other human tissue.
Question, how many people died between the “old light” and the “new light”? So God told his “organization” one thing and then later changed his mind? Oh wait.. according to the Watchtower of 2/1881 “ New light never contradicts old light, but adds to it” This has been the stance of the Watchtower since.
November 5th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
Thanks for your quick reply. As I observed, you’re commenting from the past records whereas I speak of the present. (ex: before JW’s celebrate birthdays… now (newlight) they no longer) Hence, “contradicting” as you say it was - is infact it’s not.
Please digest this text coz this would be my last comment my friend, if you’re an ex-JW please come back to Jehovah; I’ve been disfellowshiped before and shunned, but instead of rebelling, I humbled myself and now I find more light:
For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
November 5th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
Guess Who,
With all due respect, not a single hour, minute, second or dollar used to share God’s Word and expose the LIES, that’s right LIES, that the Watchtower teaches is useless. It may be your opinion and you are entitled to have one, but the only opinion we are concerned with is God’s. We are here to serve Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Do you know Him? He really wants to know you.
“I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t be stumbling through the darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.” John 8:12
JESUS IS THE LIGHT, not the guidance you get from the Watchtower.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6
Jesus didn’t stutter when he spoke of these things.
He is the light we are to follow. How does The Watchtower get you to follow “their” teachings when Jesus clearly tells you “follow me”.
Why should anyone need to read between the lines? Let’s be BOLD. God speaks to us in His Word. The Watchtower teaches you to read between their lies. Let’s be honest Guess Who, “some” will say it’s better to ignore what is being said here. The Watchtower wants you to keep away because the truth is being shown here and that, my friend, clearly exposes the lies they are feeding you.
In Christ, servingHim
November 5th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
Guess who? Are ya with me??? Of course I am speaking on past records, doesn’t that mean anything to you? Did you read about “new light”? Listen, we love you very much. Did you hear that? We love you! And so does Jesus! So much so, that he gave his life for you and you don’t have to do another thing. Just accept it and ask him into your heart! He will come in and save you!
Listen, you can quote all the verses you want, but tell me what it means. You are being sold a bill of goods! Ask me what the verse you are referring to means!!!
November 6th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Jesuslvr, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to leave you out. Yes, the 144,000 come from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are all men. They find and accept Jesus as their savior during the tribulation period and are sealed. As far as when this happens, I do not see that in scripture and I do not think that this is the only way a person hears the gospel. There will be people that heard it prior, but did not do anything with the knowledge until they see the rapture and know it was the truth. Then they will accept Jesus and have to try to live through the 7 years. Many of these will no doubt spread the Word during this period. If the Jehovahs Witnesses would simply read the text and not read “into” the text, they would see what the 144,000 are.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
To Kenneth - I live in a state with lots of Mormons, but oddly enough, the Jehovahs witnesses are the ones that keep coming to my door. I finally stopped hiding when they knocked and started reading the bible daily.After 3 months of research on thier religion, I let them in to do a “Bible Study” they had been wanting. I didn’t have young witnesses, they sent me life long witnesses. They used the King James Version of the bible before they came up with their New World Translation. I simply asked them if this is what they used before and they said yes. I asked them if we could do all of our studies through the KJV and they agreed. We went over all their and my questions and the answers were simple. The truth comes in the Bible. All other books that have been added are man made. After our visit they rushed off and haven’t ever returned. Please get in a bible believing church and stay away from LDS and Kingdom Halls! The bible will warn you of false teachings. As a Christian, I pray for these people and hope that if I can help use Gods word to help them see the truth, that they will see that the only way to heaven is through Jesus and faith. Neither the mormons or Jehovahs witnesses use the cross, how sad, that is the only way to heaven. I pray for you to find your way, you are on the right track, but looking around. All you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart and he will show you the way. Read Rev. 3:20. You will find Jesus!
November 6th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are slowly but surely losing their grip on their flock.
I have been around the Witnesses since I was two years old. I am in my thirties now. I have seen my family stay together but be torn apart and rearranged first by the “elders” and the peer group in general.
I left the religion at age 15 after my father decided that I could do so. It is only my mother who is a Witness but she rules the roost, so to speak, and my father follows along.
My younger sisters have both left the religion. One in fact being “disfellowshipped” a week after handing in her “dissociation”. (These “buzz words” that they use still grate on me!)
My sisters were completely ignored by their friends but managed to struggle on by building new friends - something that Witnesses constantly drill into recruits as being impossible to do.
Out of about 50 kids whose families were all Witnesses when I was growing up, about 45 have left and are now leading normal lives.
Witnesses, even long-term followers, are starting to question the inconsistencies and cover-ups and are not satisfied anymore with the answers that they are getting.
The recent paedophile scandal hit very hard in Ireland where I grew up. Witnesses were gouged to their very souls when it was decided to bury the accusations under the carpet.
My little brother died of meningitis over 10 years ago. The elders were on the scene like a shot in the two hour window that he was diagnosed. The most important thing on their minds?…control! No blood. Doctors told me after that despite what the elders said….they were not sure if he would have died had a transfusion been accepted.
There is a craving for vengeance that sits just below the surface of my exterior. I almost have it mastered now - but sometimes I have to go away, far away from any Witnesses. I know it’s not their fault. I know it’s much bigger than they are. Someday though…..the Watchtower will fall, and these people will need shepherds.
You all do great work here. Keep it up.
November 8th, 2006 at 3:21 am
I’d just like to introduce myself, I’m from the UK where witnesses are growing. I have just found this information lol and needless to say, I have been awake all night taking this all in.
Thank you so much for the information its helped me on my way to find inner peace and justify my faith and made it stronger although i have no name to my faith be it witness catholic or jew.
I too was interested in what the witnesses had to say so I studie. I wanted information about the founder memebers and found them reluctant to give me any information. (odd)
I am now well equipt to inform others studying..I can never thank you enough
your work is priceless
seren
November 10th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Pedward,
You quote so many things from the watchtowers and awake’s, are you an apostate?? yes or no would be fine. no long drawn out answer.
November 10th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Reasoning, I am not an apostate, just an educated man. If you would like to read my story, you can find it in the forum.
November 10th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Reasoning, why does it bother you that I quote the Watchtower and Awake? If it’s the truth, then it shouldn’t be a problem should it?
November 12th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
hi i am a Greek Orthodox Christian. I d like to answer to Guess Who about the easter and christmas celebrations. Its the 4th century that fathers of eastern and western church develop the canon of New Testament. That is to say, the books that JWs are also using in their “religion” -translated though- were chosen among tenghths of others at that age by christian fathers, (there were existing many books writen up to that time anonymously of pseydonynmously, most by names of Apostles). It was the same fathers that celebrated easter and christmas. In brief, it was the church that created the New Testament and not the opposite. You can read history. So, you should question as well the authenticity of those Holy Scriptures. I also have a question. As a greek, i have access to the original scriptures and read them exactly at the language they were writen. Why did those writers, either translating into Greek Jesus’s sayings, or writing their own letters to new churches ie Paul, didnt feel the urge to use the word Jehovah: you can find this word nowhere in the New Testament i mean the original in Greek. Why didnt the late christian father who fixed the New Testament canon didnt feel the urge to replace the word “Kyrios” with the “Jehovah” and why these fathers in their own writing, never use this term. Its a term that the church that created the holy bible (the new testament) never uses.
November 24th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Hello everyone, I find this site fascinating and wanted to comment on lady bug’s statement that
“if someone were to read the Bible without the preconception of the Trinity, would they come up with it on their own? No..”
The August 15, 1981 edition of Watchtower condemns those who:
say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home…Through such “Bible reading,” they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago..
Do you not find it strange that the Watchtower society itself admits that anyone who reads the Bible alone will come to the same beliefs that orthodox Christianity has always held?
The watchtower is not the voice of God. The voice of God is found only in the Scriptures. Secondly Scripture is completely sufficient to provide the knowledge that leads to everlasting life.
As a Christian, regardless of my denomination, I would take 2 Tim 3:15-17 over any conflicting Watchtower material.
eagerly waiting your insight.
November 27th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Why on Earth would you spend so much time feeling like you need to “reveal” Jehovah’s Witnesses? I am not a witness but can’t help but laugh at how bored you all must be to actually take so much time to critisise their organization. As you put it you are “an educated man” and that’s why you can quote the Watchtower and NWT bible. I think the reason you are so knowledgeable is because you were a witness and were disfellowshiped. Why else would someone feel so passionately about devoting thier time to this website? As Debbie revealed Witnesses won’t only quote their own bibles, they will conduct complete studies with the King James bible or any other bible you wish. Witness Witness made a quick comment on the pedifile scandle in Ireland involving Witnesses. Witnesses never claim to be perfect. They acknowledge that they are imperfect humans just like every one else. They would never condone child abuse. But why bring that up when there is so much sexual abuse involving Catholics in America? I’m almost embarassed for wasting my time commenting but seriously, get a life.
November 29th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Jennifer, We spend the time we do because we want those involved to know that what is being taught by the Watchtower is wrong. There are hundreds of witnesses dieing without the truth of Jesus Christ and who he really is. For this, they will pay the ultimate price and spend eternity in Hell because they have denied him. When I said I was an educated man, I was speaking about being educated on what the Watchtower teaches, not that I am some puffed up Bible scholar. I wish a had a dollar for every time I was accused of being an disfellowshipped Witness, this is despite the fact that I have said I am not, over and over. My story is in the forum and you see why I started this site.
I still don’t know why it bothers the Jehovah’s Witness that I know so much about their religion, isn’t that what they want? Or do they really want people to just blindly follow everything that is said without question. I can tell you for a fact that that is exactly what they want. If a Jehovah’s Witness ever came to me and said they would conduct a study using the King James, I would give my address and tell them to come on over. I challenge any Witness to show me the doctrines they teach in the King James. You see, I’ve had them in my home and that is what they said, but then when you start to reveal what the King James says, they come back with “Well, the King James is incorrect because in the original Greek… bla bla bla” It’s always the same. They give this pat answer that they are told to say and try to lead you to the NWT.
Jennifer, it is completely sad that you think that the Watchtower hiding pedophiles is even close to admitting they are imperfect. Imperfect? I beg your pardon, it sickens me how children have been abused over and over and then the problem covered up by the Watchtower to protect “Gods Organization” . Please, it makes me sick that you would even bring up the Catholics as if to draw attention away from the Watchtower. “You clean the cup on the outside, but you fail to clean the inside”. I’m sorry if I’m blunt at this point, but you should be embarrassed. I truly hope that one day your eyes will be opened, but I can tell you this. One day you will stand before Jesus and you will give account and there is no doubt that he will remind you of what you read on this site, and at that point you will have no excuse. You also have not answered the question in the article, only tried to deflect. God Bless you, and I really hope you read and learn and take in everything that you see here Jennifer.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
Hello my Bothers and Sisters. I would like some help? My wife and I have been doing a lot of studying on some of the organization and we have been able to have an intelgent conversation with JW’s at our door, But the othere day we witnessing to the Witnesses and the gentelman said that our Bodies where souls and our spirt is our personalities. I lead him to the verses that said, absent from the body present with the Lord; Not even a sword can divide the soul and the spirt. He went back to Gen. and asked me if we are from dust and of couse I said yes. Then asked me who in this vs. gave life to this dust and of course I said God. He then proseded down a bunch of one line vs’s to explain to me how we are just dust and when we die that we die and go to heaven. That when Jesus Christ comes back that he will then resurect us from this dust state and then we will live on this new earth. I was wondering if you have any help with this. Also I have heard a lot about the leader of the JW’s whent to jail can you exbound on this alittle if this acount is true. We had a little debate on this at the door.
I really appreciate the help, for some reason God as brought quite a few Jw’s to my life and God is one to seek and save the lost, and I just want to be a good stewared of this.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Hi Ken, The one thing that the Watchtower teaches the Jehovah’s Witness is to keep you moving from one verse to another. Don’t let them do this. This is the way they catch most people who are not that familiar with the Word. I call it Bible ping pong. Once they bring you to a verse, tell them to stop and read the first 20 verses before and the 20 verses after. If you do this you will pretty, much get the context in which the verse was written. Don’t allow them to take things out of context, this is their biggest trap.
If a Jehovah’s Witness is telling you when you die you go to heaven, then I guess he is confused on the Watchtower doctrine, since according to them “we have no soul” so my question would be, what goes to heaven? When Jesus returns, yes, our souls will be reunited with our new bodies in the resurrection.
I have not heard about a leader being sent to jail, so I’m not sure where that comes from, but would like to know who and when so we can research it. Let us know if you have anymore questions that we can help with.
December 16th, 2006 at 10:47 am
I’m confused……John 17 v 3 reads somthing like: “This means eternal life, taking in knowledge of you the true lord and of the one that you sent to us jesus christ” Dosnt this show there is no trinity it talks as jesus and the lord god almighty being 2 seperate entitys. my understanding may be wrong any ideas????
December 18th, 2006 at 9:32 am
For the last month or so I have been romantically pursued and am falling madly in love with a young man from a difficult background in South America. I knew he was more religious than I (a Rom Cath since birth), but only realized he is of the JW two weeks ago. He, as you can easily imagine, has re-introduced me to studying the Bible which I haven’t done in earnest since my days in Catholic school. This past weekend he took me to a meeting, and I have been reviewing several pieces of organizational literature (including a dvd) that he has given to me. At the meeting and in the literature I have been struck by a several things, most of all the concept of exclusively male elders and a sort of mute acceptance of things said in the literature, all of which seems very unlike the young man I am in love with.
I have told you that I was pursued by him (i.e. not the other way around). Did I also mention we are both studying the same foreign language in a foreign country and neither of us can speak the other’s native tongue anywhere close to proficiently? Or how about that I am 8 years his senior? And finally, that I am a military officer? All of these things he knows and has known about me for a month, and none of it has stopped him from wanting me as his constant companion… in fact, it seems to fascinate him.
The more I learn from him and from you all, though, the more the JW thing becomes suspect. I don’t trust this organization. I want to tell him, but he is sustained by his NWT Bible (no problem there) and beholden to this organizational doctrine (therein the problem). I have tried to express dissenting points of view in the past, but I don’t really know how to do so effectively, seeing as we both speak a foreign language to each other to communicate. It has only ended in childish argument. Does anyone know of an effective way to open someone’s eyes without offending them? If you could give me something in Spanish, that would help, too.
December 18th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Hi Strangelove, OK, so you have known this guy for a month, he has introduced you to a new religion which you have questions. Great, lets talk about that. First of all, I would love to know what is on the DVD, so we could answer every question or doubt they put into your mind. (Can you send u s copy?, I’ll pay the postage) You will soon find out that the things they are telling you can come with a very big price. You spoke about elders, so lets go with them. Many of them, (not all) have been brought up on charges of child molestation. The Watchtower has tried to hide this fact and covered up the allegations. They tell the people who come forward that “they need 2 witnesses” to collaborate the story in order to do anything. See www.SilentLambs.com for more info.
Seems the warning lights should be going off here Strangelove. One month, can’t speak your language, 8 years older, none stop pursuit? Please, if I had to guess, you are an attractive woman who is in pursuit by a man who has only one thing on his mind. Sorry, that’s my cut. So, is that the man you want? A man who cares nothing about what your religion is, what you feel, or want? Don’t be so fast. The Bible tells us to test all things in the light of scripture, so please ask yourself those important questions.
You need to know the true Bible in order to answer him, and sometimes you just have to offend and move on. The truth hurts at times, but that’s what we are called to do. Learn it for yourself first.
December 18th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
OK. Thank you.
December 18th, 2006 at 8:06 pm
Read Genesis 18:2. There were 3 men standing by him, and Abraham bowed before them and said “My Lord”. Notice he didn’t say my lords? Then in Genesis 18:22 we read “ then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord” Humm.. Where did the other men go? And why is the man standing called the Lord? Read on and you will see that only one is left standing but the other 2 are somewhere else in Genesis 19:1 and bowed before them and called them Lords. How is this and how could this be? One in one place and 2 in another?
If Jesus’ reference to the Father as “the only true God” were meant to exclude the Son from deity, then the same principle of interpretation would have to apply to Jude 4, where Jesus Christ is called “our only Owner and Lord” (NWT). This would have excluded the Father from Lordship and Ownership. But, the Watchtower speak of the Father as “the Lord Jehovah”, even though Jude 4 calls Jesus our “only” Lord. And the Holy Spirit is called “Lord” at 2 Cor 3:17. Obviously , then , neither use of the word only is exclusive with reference to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Sprit. Jesus being called our only Lord does not rule out the Lordship of the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Look also at Ex 3:14, Ps 110:1. Isa 9:6, John 1:1, John 20:28 and Rev 1:7-8
December 20th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
I have a new friend. She is a JW. Yet, she is attracted to me and has agreed to go on dates with me. . .i have not kissed her or anything but we admit that we are attracted to each other. She’s always talking about her field service work, kingdom hall, etc etc. . .I want to save her from this cult because she has a beautiful spirit and i possibly see a future with her. . .PLEASE SOME ONE GIVE ME A STEP BY STEP APPROACH TO HOW I CAN START TO SAVE HER, TALK TO HER, SOMETHINg, ANYTHING TO END THIS JW MESS!! PLEASE HELP A BROTHA OUT!!!
December 23rd, 2006 at 3:16 am
Pedward
I have read the last 48 Responses to ‘The Crowd’ and have spent the last week, daily searching God’s Word for what I would consider sums up the true understanding of where we are going in the day when our Lord takes us. It can be told us in John 14:2-3 ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you’ I go to prepare a place for you.’ ‘And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself: that where I am, there will you be also’
This seems pretty straight forward: The Lord will come to take us AWAY from this earth to live with Him in HEAVEN. He will prepare a place for us IN HEAVEN to be with Him, not on earth
Kenneth
December 23rd, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Nice job Kenneth. So you can see that this is not just about 144,000, it is for anyone who has trusted him for who he really is and has accepted him as their Lord and Savior.
December 24th, 2006 at 12:03 am
Pedward
In Response No 49 where I state in the last paragraph about our everlasting eternal life with the Lord, with the last 3 words ‘on on earth’ was mis-spelt. As you perhaps knew when you read the report you understood that it should had read ‘not on earth. I clarify my error for thoes who read what I had earlier typed
So to clear up my typing error, this should read as:
‘The Lord will come to take us AWAY from this earth to live with Him in HEAVEN. He will prepare a place for us IN HEAVEN to be with Him, not on earth’
Also I would like to add another Scripture to question how the Jehovah Witness want to believe that they will live on the earth after what God has predicted will happen to it in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 8:1-13 and Chapter 9:1-21 and Chapter 10:7 concerning what the 7 angels which stood before God, casting their censers that God told them to throw to the earth bringing about voices, thunderings, lightenings, earthquakes: this was before the first of the seven angels sounded!! Then life become even more of a problem!!
Angel One: Hail, Fire mingled with blood cast upon the earth, the third part of trees were burnt up and the grass too
Angel Two: A great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea and became blood, the third part of the creatures in the sea died, including a third of all the ships destroyed
Angel Three: A great star, called Wormwood, fell from Heaven burning like a lamp, fell upon the third part of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters, becoming wormwood (internet dictionary meaning: something bitter, grievous or extremely unpleasant)
Angel Four: The third part of the sun, moon and stars were smitten (internet dictionary meaning: violently struck down), they were darkened a third part and the day did not shine for a third part, the night like-wise
ADD THIS SCRIPTURE TO YOUR WATCHTOWER BOOKS YOU MIS-LED JEHOVAH WITNESS BELIEVERS!!! But do not get too upset!! It is NOT from YOUR Bible but the true Word of God
Revelation 8:13
‘And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound”‘
Angel Five: A star falls from Heaven to the earth. The angel was given a key to the bottomless pit, the angel opened the pit where smoke arose from a great furnace, the sun and the air darkened. Locusts came upon the earth, and also scorpions to torment them for five months. Men will seek death at this time but will not find it
Angel Six: Killing of man-kind of one third, three plagues: fire, smoke and brimstone.
Angel Seven: In the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to his servants the prophets
Is the above description of God’s Wrath on man-kind in the Book of Revelation the Jehovah Witness answer? Of course not!!
KENNETH
December 24th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Kenneth, I fixed that for you so it reads right. You are correct about heaven, but don’t forget that we will be back on earth ruling with Jesus with our new glorified bodies.(Rev 21) This takes place after his return in Rev 19. We are his bride. But if you die before this and have accepted Jesus, you will be in heaven with him until he returns with us.
December 26th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
um. . .i was asking for help in approaching a JW in the hopes of getting her out of this cult. . .I’ve received no responses. Am i on my own in this effort? I thought someone here could point me in the right direction?? Please don’t turn a deaf ear to my plea. . .
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:37 pm
A comment above challenged where Russel ever claimed himself to be a prophet. He didn’t have to. The governing body of the “Society” did it for him. See the Watchtower May 1, 1922. Deut.18:22 still applies.—Billy
June 5th, 2007 at 10:32 am
I have spent 40 yrs in the wilderness-raised as a JW, confused, tormented because I couldnt fully embrace their beliefs, teachings and philosophy. I just beleived I was no good and God was going to destroy me because I wasnt in “the Truth” as they like to call it. I went unchurched with no spiritual life and path until just recently and now have found so much revelation by studying God’s word for myself and through the help of pastors and ministers who aided me with real Bible truths. I still have a few doubts-When you are taught from birth there is no Heaven just a cold grave(hell) that will receive you because you do not dedicated and baptized under the JW world view, your life can become pointless and aimless-you are a throw away, worthless and they make no apolology for regulating to that end. Now that the internet is a viable way to research and discuss these issues I feel empowered and enlightened. Honestly I have been to Kingdom Halls on and off for 40 years and there is no growth of any kind, no new information and really no answers concerning the future except the standard beliefs and practices that have never made any sense. If God is so loving and consistent, orderly as they claim why is the mystery of the 144,000 such a math mystery that is harder than Chinese Arithmetic to explain-and if you cant explain it you cant even become one of them. I dont like, infact I hate knocking on strangers doors uninvited to harass them about their faith based beliefs but I like most witness children was forced to do this every free moment of my childhood. It was no less torturous than any other abuse that children can face. And in my home there was no discussion or choice about it. I am so glad to be free finally from their insipid grip and false teachings and know that God really does love us all and accepts us as sinners once we recognize him and his son’s life giving sacrifice for us all-and what is up with their bible translation-that really is a sinister message that they say is the only credible translation of God’s words will and purpose. With all of our lives at stake for salvation and damnation they really should be ashamed and checked on how they indoctrinate people to their strict, robotic, harsh and unloving enviornment. thanks for the information-I will return to listen and learn more about this organization that has most of my family members in a choke hold of religious muck!